Friendships and crime-fighting
Mar. 11th, 2016 07:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ladybug_archiveSo while I was going through stuff tagging it recently, I stumbled on that entry where I was comparing Napoleon and Illya's interaction to Jim and Arte's. That was before I'd seen The Summit Five Affair, so I didn't even really believe there was a friendship between Napoleon and Illya and in any case, if there was, I preferred Jim and Arte's insult-free friendship. It was interesting to read that again. And even though now I have come to believe in Napoleon and Illya's friendship, the comparison still made some observational points that are relevant regardless. I've been thinking about it ever since.
It was amusing about Napoleon and Illya, really. The whole fandom pretty much celebrates their friendship, and then there was this one person who insisted she didn't see their relationship that way at all and felt they were only partners, and then there was me in the middle. I wanted to believe in the friendship, but I wasn't feeling it, and I wondered if she was right. I was thrilled when I watched The Summit Five Affair and finally saw clear and present friendshippiness. Yet in spite of that, and in spite of the fact that I enjoy reading other people's friendship fics with them now and then, I personally don't seem to be that interested in writing about friendshippy, hurt/comforty situations with them. For that matter, I don't really seem to be that interested in writing that sort of thing with Jim and Arte, either.
It could be the fact that I don't actually crush on any of them very seriously. (I do have mild crushes, to varying degrees.) Generally, I reserve hurt/comfort scenarios for characters I'm actually crushing on very seriously. On the other hand, it could be that plus the fact that for both shows, my favorite things about them are the plots and mysteries rather than the friendships. (And some of the guest-stars....) And that may sound strange coming from someone who can get so intrigued by friendships that she'll even tinker with characters she normally wouldn't go near, but considering that mysteries and detective shows were always my first love, it makes sense. I mean, seriously, I was four years old and I knew I just had to watch Carmen Sandiego because it was about detectives in these awesome fedora hats and catching crooks and that just sounded so epically awesome. I'm still puzzling over how I already knew I wanted that type of show. I certainly hadn't been exposed to it before; Mom felt I was way too young for that sort of thing. Then the same thing happened when we got this thingie in the mail telling about upcoming shows and I learned about Darkwing Duck. I was like "... A crime-fighting duck?! I MUST WATCH!"
So yeah. Pretty much if it was a crime show, I wanted it. That was my original motivation for getting into The Andy Griffith Show too. (Well, that and Barney sounded hilarious.) Then I started learning all I could about classic TV and found out about U.N.C.L.E. and WWW and all those great things and I wanted them. But it took years before I actually had access to them. And I was all over the James Bond film Moonraker when I saw it (aside from the bed times). Spy stuff ... yay!
But back to Napoleon and Illya. Their specific friendship type is not being very open about their caring. As Crystal pointed out, the best way to see their caring in most episodes is through their facial expressions. It's a very visual thing. That, of course, doesn't translate to stories (unless they're illustrated). But that could be part of my disinterest in writing friendshippy fics about them too, since in lieu of seeing the caring via pictures, it would have to come out some other way. I don't want things to get too mushy/goopy since that would be OOC for them, but sometimes even them discussing deep things at all can result in them seeming too open/OOC. With them, I usually prefer to keep things pretty much as they are in the show, and hence, my stories usually seem to focus on their adventures instead of being hurt/comforty (aside from one creepy fic). I do like having them discuss deep subjects at times, which they do in The Peaceful Meadows Affair, but it doesn't really feel like I'm having them be so open.
Then we have characters like Brett and Danny, who also have that insult humor I don't like but can also do a 180-degree turn and be very open about their caring like it's the most natural thing in the world to show it (which it should be, but it's understandable/professional/better if secret agents like Napoleon and Illya don't follow that idea). I'm hoping to write more fics with them, but I am wondering if I'll be able/comfortable getting the insult banter into things. I haven't really needed to yet, and come to think of it, I've left that out of the U.N.C.L.E. fics too. The thing I adore about Brett and Danny is their openness and I find that easier and more relatable to write than friends who are holding themselves more at arm's length.
When I really think about it, Brett and Danny may very well be an exception to the usual, as it seems like the friendships I usually enjoy writing about the very most ... are often ones I've developed almost or entirely on my own, rather than being fully in canon. With the exceptions of the canonical friendships of Sephiroth and Zack (as shown in Crisis Core), Joe Mannix and Lew Wickersham, and now Brett and Danny, it seems like most of my main friendships have only really been developed into friendships by me. The familial relationships I've loved to write about are canon, but the friendships ... either hardly ever are or else there's only the slightest smidgen of it shown in canon and the smidgen is enough to intrigue me and make me want more. Even with Seph and Zack, there isn't a whole lot showing them together in canon, although as I recall, someone does specifically identify them as friends in-game.
Usually I characterize working partners as friends, regardless of whether they're actually depicted as such in canon. Other examples would be Gin and Vodka, the bikers, Schrank and Krupke, Ginger and Lou, and Ecks and Wye (although the evidence for the latter being friends seems pretty strong to me, given Wye's actual flipping out after finding Ecks stabbed).
With the bikers, Raph seemed protective of Valon in canon, but Valon and Alister couldn't seem to get along. And usually aside from that, they didn't interact together. But it became a fanon thing to have them be friends anyway, with several people adopting the idea of them deciding to start over together after the Doom arc, since they'd already been through so much together and they were really all each other had.
With Ginger and Lou, you have to look pretty closely to see what's going on there, but there is definitely some kind of chemistry between either the actors, the characters or both. I think that essay I wrote pretty well examines every possibility and shows that it is possible that they could be friends. I develop the idea by saying that they became closer and more open while in prison, thus opening the door for their interaction as I've depicted it. Of course, one could certainly use the argument I made with Napoleon and Illya and throw it back at me, saying I shouldn't portray these two being open either. I've worried about that. But one thing is, we've only seen how Ginger and Lou canonically interact during a high-stress situation. With Napoleon and Illya, we've also seen how they behave during downtime. So with Ginger and Lou, I figure there might be some leeway since we don't know how they behave during normal times. I try to make their interaction as fitting the characters shown in canon even though at the same time I'm trying to develop it a bit beyond that. (I guess I also figure no one would care if I soften Ginger a bit, really, since I doubt anyone really became intrigued by him and Lou in canon like I did. I kind of worry what David Chase, the writer of that episode, might think, though. Yes, that David Chase....) Of course, that's what a lot of the U.N.C.L.E. writers do as well, often with excellent results.
Then there's Autor and Ahiru, who were certainly not friends in the series proper. But Autor seemed friendly in that little follow-up play some of the voice actors did, and given Ahiru's gregarious personality, I have a hard time believing that she wouldn't eventually come to see the good in Autor and accept him as a friend. So that seemed to have good potential even though it wasn't expressly canon and that became another of my favorite friendships to work with.
Then we have Duke and David. There's no indication of who David is to Duke in canon (aside from the dub note that he's the store manager), but since Duke confided in David about his plans, at least partially, and David teases Duke without consequence, I would say it's pretty likely that they're friends.
And of course, things like Ray Norman and Coley Rodman, Snakes Tolliver and Beau Maverick, and Snakes and Duke, are most certainly not canon by the slightest stretch of the imagination. Those characters are not on the same show in canon, nor are Ray and Coley or Snakes and Duke canonically in the same time. It's interesting how things like that can just develop in fics or role-plays and end up feeling so right.
Perhaps I usually prefer focusing on things like that because I feel that either canon or the other fans are handling the main friendships just fine and I'd rather do something different and explore other angles. I know that's how I tend to feel about Rumbelle, even though I still enjoy writing my vignette series now and then. That's more in protest of the way Once has gone downhill, though, instead of a desire to actually write Rumbelle. I like to write them talking, which the show should have done more of, but I am pretty useless when it comes to romantic stuff. In general I find romantic/kissing scenes tedious, boring, and almost impossible to write, and I don't want to let down the fans who want to see lots of that, so I still hesitate to post my vignettes on FF.net. (That, and the fact that I don't update that story very frequently....)
It was amusing about Napoleon and Illya, really. The whole fandom pretty much celebrates their friendship, and then there was this one person who insisted she didn't see their relationship that way at all and felt they were only partners, and then there was me in the middle. I wanted to believe in the friendship, but I wasn't feeling it, and I wondered if she was right. I was thrilled when I watched The Summit Five Affair and finally saw clear and present friendshippiness. Yet in spite of that, and in spite of the fact that I enjoy reading other people's friendship fics with them now and then, I personally don't seem to be that interested in writing about friendshippy, hurt/comforty situations with them. For that matter, I don't really seem to be that interested in writing that sort of thing with Jim and Arte, either.
It could be the fact that I don't actually crush on any of them very seriously. (I do have mild crushes, to varying degrees.) Generally, I reserve hurt/comfort scenarios for characters I'm actually crushing on very seriously. On the other hand, it could be that plus the fact that for both shows, my favorite things about them are the plots and mysteries rather than the friendships. (And some of the guest-stars....) And that may sound strange coming from someone who can get so intrigued by friendships that she'll even tinker with characters she normally wouldn't go near, but considering that mysteries and detective shows were always my first love, it makes sense. I mean, seriously, I was four years old and I knew I just had to watch Carmen Sandiego because it was about detectives in these awesome fedora hats and catching crooks and that just sounded so epically awesome. I'm still puzzling over how I already knew I wanted that type of show. I certainly hadn't been exposed to it before; Mom felt I was way too young for that sort of thing. Then the same thing happened when we got this thingie in the mail telling about upcoming shows and I learned about Darkwing Duck. I was like "... A crime-fighting duck?! I MUST WATCH!"
So yeah. Pretty much if it was a crime show, I wanted it. That was my original motivation for getting into The Andy Griffith Show too. (Well, that and Barney sounded hilarious.) Then I started learning all I could about classic TV and found out about U.N.C.L.E. and WWW and all those great things and I wanted them. But it took years before I actually had access to them. And I was all over the James Bond film Moonraker when I saw it (aside from the bed times). Spy stuff ... yay!
But back to Napoleon and Illya. Their specific friendship type is not being very open about their caring. As Crystal pointed out, the best way to see their caring in most episodes is through their facial expressions. It's a very visual thing. That, of course, doesn't translate to stories (unless they're illustrated). But that could be part of my disinterest in writing friendshippy fics about them too, since in lieu of seeing the caring via pictures, it would have to come out some other way. I don't want things to get too mushy/goopy since that would be OOC for them, but sometimes even them discussing deep things at all can result in them seeming too open/OOC. With them, I usually prefer to keep things pretty much as they are in the show, and hence, my stories usually seem to focus on their adventures instead of being hurt/comforty (aside from one creepy fic). I do like having them discuss deep subjects at times, which they do in The Peaceful Meadows Affair, but it doesn't really feel like I'm having them be so open.
Then we have characters like Brett and Danny, who also have that insult humor I don't like but can also do a 180-degree turn and be very open about their caring like it's the most natural thing in the world to show it (which it should be, but it's understandable/professional/better if secret agents like Napoleon and Illya don't follow that idea). I'm hoping to write more fics with them, but I am wondering if I'll be able/comfortable getting the insult banter into things. I haven't really needed to yet, and come to think of it, I've left that out of the U.N.C.L.E. fics too. The thing I adore about Brett and Danny is their openness and I find that easier and more relatable to write than friends who are holding themselves more at arm's length.
When I really think about it, Brett and Danny may very well be an exception to the usual, as it seems like the friendships I usually enjoy writing about the very most ... are often ones I've developed almost or entirely on my own, rather than being fully in canon. With the exceptions of the canonical friendships of Sephiroth and Zack (as shown in Crisis Core), Joe Mannix and Lew Wickersham, and now Brett and Danny, it seems like most of my main friendships have only really been developed into friendships by me. The familial relationships I've loved to write about are canon, but the friendships ... either hardly ever are or else there's only the slightest smidgen of it shown in canon and the smidgen is enough to intrigue me and make me want more. Even with Seph and Zack, there isn't a whole lot showing them together in canon, although as I recall, someone does specifically identify them as friends in-game.
Usually I characterize working partners as friends, regardless of whether they're actually depicted as such in canon. Other examples would be Gin and Vodka, the bikers, Schrank and Krupke, Ginger and Lou, and Ecks and Wye (although the evidence for the latter being friends seems pretty strong to me, given Wye's actual flipping out after finding Ecks stabbed).
With the bikers, Raph seemed protective of Valon in canon, but Valon and Alister couldn't seem to get along. And usually aside from that, they didn't interact together. But it became a fanon thing to have them be friends anyway, with several people adopting the idea of them deciding to start over together after the Doom arc, since they'd already been through so much together and they were really all each other had.
With Ginger and Lou, you have to look pretty closely to see what's going on there, but there is definitely some kind of chemistry between either the actors, the characters or both. I think that essay I wrote pretty well examines every possibility and shows that it is possible that they could be friends. I develop the idea by saying that they became closer and more open while in prison, thus opening the door for their interaction as I've depicted it. Of course, one could certainly use the argument I made with Napoleon and Illya and throw it back at me, saying I shouldn't portray these two being open either. I've worried about that. But one thing is, we've only seen how Ginger and Lou canonically interact during a high-stress situation. With Napoleon and Illya, we've also seen how they behave during downtime. So with Ginger and Lou, I figure there might be some leeway since we don't know how they behave during normal times. I try to make their interaction as fitting the characters shown in canon even though at the same time I'm trying to develop it a bit beyond that. (I guess I also figure no one would care if I soften Ginger a bit, really, since I doubt anyone really became intrigued by him and Lou in canon like I did. I kind of worry what David Chase, the writer of that episode, might think, though. Yes, that David Chase....) Of course, that's what a lot of the U.N.C.L.E. writers do as well, often with excellent results.
Then there's Autor and Ahiru, who were certainly not friends in the series proper. But Autor seemed friendly in that little follow-up play some of the voice actors did, and given Ahiru's gregarious personality, I have a hard time believing that she wouldn't eventually come to see the good in Autor and accept him as a friend. So that seemed to have good potential even though it wasn't expressly canon and that became another of my favorite friendships to work with.
Then we have Duke and David. There's no indication of who David is to Duke in canon (aside from the dub note that he's the store manager), but since Duke confided in David about his plans, at least partially, and David teases Duke without consequence, I would say it's pretty likely that they're friends.
And of course, things like Ray Norman and Coley Rodman, Snakes Tolliver and Beau Maverick, and Snakes and Duke, are most certainly not canon by the slightest stretch of the imagination. Those characters are not on the same show in canon, nor are Ray and Coley or Snakes and Duke canonically in the same time. It's interesting how things like that can just develop in fics or role-plays and end up feeling so right.
Perhaps I usually prefer focusing on things like that because I feel that either canon or the other fans are handling the main friendships just fine and I'd rather do something different and explore other angles. I know that's how I tend to feel about Rumbelle, even though I still enjoy writing my vignette series now and then. That's more in protest of the way Once has gone downhill, though, instead of a desire to actually write Rumbelle. I like to write them talking, which the show should have done more of, but I am pretty useless when it comes to romantic stuff. In general I find romantic/kissing scenes tedious, boring, and almost impossible to write, and I don't want to let down the fans who want to see lots of that, so I still hesitate to post my vignettes on FF.net. (That, and the fact that I don't update that story very frequently....)
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no subject
Date: 2016-03-12 05:39 am (UTC)I am definitely seriously crushing on them both, so writing the h/c comes easy for me (I still love how that avalanche fic turned out; I got a lot of praise saying it was just right and not too sappy and still perfectly in character). And I know I sometimes let them get into deeper convos than the show did; I hope they stay IC there, too? I'd assume you'd have told me if there was anything glaringly OOC, and since you haven't, I guess I'm doing something right...
Napoleon and Illya are a lot like the Hogan's Heroes crew. They're soldiers, they don't wear their hearts on their sleeves and talk about deep things or are very outspoken about being friends. But the exchange of expressions, hands on the shoulders, private jokes, banter, and yes, even the teasing/insults make the friendship shine, and Napoleon and Illya are definitely like that, too.
...And I still need to read your fics. Ugggh, this semester is really kicking me down...
(although the evidence for the latter being friends seems pretty strong to me, given Wye's actual flipping out after finding Ecks stabbed).
You could argue that with Napoleon and Illya, too--in "The Secret Sceptre Affair," it's one of the few times that Napoleon is about to lose it, and he flat-out tells the one creep "If Illya is dead, so are you."
At any rate, I'm glad you enjoy my MFU fics!
no subject
Date: 2016-03-12 07:50 am (UTC)H/C always comes easy when there are heavy crushes on the people involved. ;) And yeah, you try pretty hard to keep things a logical expansion of the canon, like I try to do with Ginger and Lou. I was a little unsure if I could fully picture them having some of the deeper talks, but nothing sounded blatantly OOC, no, and I was particularly impressed by the most recent pieces I commented on. They seemed the very most like something on the show and I could easily picture them happening. I don't know whether that was my imagination or not, but I suppose writing does improve the more you write for a fandom, even if it's awesome writing to start with. I know that I always take at least a few fics to really get the most perfect handle on things.
Yeah, comparing them to the Hogan's Heroes characters works (although it would probably work a lot more to tell it to someone who watches a lot of Hogan's Heroes, LOL.... I don't see it very often). Indeed, though, those parallels definitely seem to run strong. It's what you'd expect of soldiers and secrets agents, at least the holding at arm's length part. They've gotta be professional, after all.
Blech. The semester definitely sounds like it's been awful.
There are so many episodes I need to watch again. Most of them I've only seen once. I think I vaguely remember that scene, though, now that you mention it. I probably either squeed or went "Wow." Or both.
Yes, you master every fandom you work with!
no subject
Date: 2016-03-14 05:05 pm (UTC)And yes, very true, heh. And thanks!
*nodnod*
It has been. I'm contemplating withdrawing from the Neuroscience course, but Mom doesn't want me to, ugh. Especially since it means I would need to take a class next semester after all.
Yessssss.
Aww, thanks!
no subject
Date: 2016-03-15 12:29 am (UTC)Ugh. It would be awful to have to take a class you've ended up not liking. But that would be frustrating to withdraw after so much work in it too, especially when there's not much time left now.
:)
no subject
Date: 2016-03-15 01:37 am (UTC)That's the thing, they're offering the class next semester I wanted most of all--Animal Behavior. But yeah, with the semester half over, it does seem a shame to waste the time (and tuition...) I put into it. Eh, I guess I'll see how Friday's exam goes and decide after that.
no subject
Date: 2016-03-15 01:46 am (UTC)